Well I have been in Thailand more years than I care to admit to, but this week I learnt a new twist to the dowry thing.
A farang neighbour, happily married to his Thai wife for twelve years has walked out from everything. The problem? When he married she had a 7 year old son from a Thai man, whom he readily accepted and cared for as his own until last week.
The son is now 19, has a girl friend and wants to get married. The girls parents want a dowry, initially 150,000 bht but now down to 100,000bht. The farang is on a limited income, pension, has spent all his savings making a modest house for the family, and has been paying monthly for a pickup for 3 years.He simply doesn't have the money to give.therefore he has said no.His logic is, if the son can't afford the money, he is a student, then don't get married.His wife has other ideas, the Thai logic is he is farang, he must pay or the family lose face!!
He asked what would happen if she hadn't married him. would the girl have accepted a lower sum, or would she refused to marry?The Thai answer was predictable, but we are married!!
On top of this, the son expects to bring his new wife to live with them, and as he doesn't work, guess whos keeping her?
After years of paying for everything he thinks this is too much to have to pay for his stepson to marry and has resolutely refused, which led to major problems, which resulted in him walking out and going to live alone.
Now the frightening thing I have a stepson, fortunately only 10 now, so it isn't an immediate problem for me, and when I discussed this with my wife, she concurred that I would be expected to do the same, but added that I could expect the dowry to be much higher for me because we live in a big house and my perceived wealth is more.
I knew about the dowry system but never expected to have to pay for a wife for him.When I jokingly suggested that if I had to pay, does that give me conjugal rights? I was called a dirty old man.
Be warned if your wife has male children, the dowry clicks in again when they marry.TIT

The way I see it, rightly or wrongly, is that it is the son who is wanting to get married, (not the farang step-father), so it is the son who should pay the dowry, or sort out with his "intended" and her family, a way round it. If, for example he is of limited means. It should surely be based on, or rather funded by, his ability to pay viz-a-viz her perceived value.

Maybe the future in-laws might want to lend or give it to him to save face!!

He posed the same "dirty old man question" I would have . He who pays has the rights.

At what age does the children looking after parents kick in for the above senario?
In my relationship my partner, (and accordingly myself when I arrived on the scene), had some debt to work through to clear our family, some of which were the debts of thai dad-in-law for a few sojourn's with younger thai woman. I don't blame him as he is a handsome and virile dude.

I and my partner agree with the guy.
The wife's "he is farang, he must pay", did nothing for either of us.
The thing I would have done different would have been to stay where I was, re-affirm my territory and tell stepson the reality of life - want a wife? Then get a job so you can support her, or if I pay I have the wedding night rights. Wouldn't really but it is one of those answers you give your children and your partner when a reality check for everyone is needed.

Which raises another issue. At 19 thai girls unfairly are expected to be contributing to the well being of the family. Why do thai guys get off so scot free? And I am not the only one who has made the observation that it is the woman of Thailand who do the hard yards while some thai guys seem to live a charmed life. Mummy's boys?

Having said the above, my LW tells me that what you have said is correct in principle, though she did point out that, as they are married his mother and father would be jointly responsible for providing the sin sot, should the son not have the means, and that the fact the father is a farang should have no bearing on the amount.

Surely the son can always wait until he has a job and more suitable means to support his proposed bride!

The sin-sot should be based on the bride's value, and take into account, to what level she is educated, what sort of job she has and what expectations they have regarding her future.

I was once quoted 100K by the family of a school teacher with a degree in accounts, but never expected my father to pay it for me!!!!

arjay wrote:Having said the above, my LW tells me that what you have said is correct in principle, though she did point out that, as they are married his mother and father would be jointly responsible for providing the sin sot, should the son not have the means, and that the fact the father is a farang should have no bearing on the amount.

Surely the son can always wait until he has a job and more suitable means to support his proposed bride!

The sin-sot should be based on the bride's value, and take into account, to what level she is educated, what sort of job she has and what expectations they have regarding her future.

I was once quoted 100K by the family of a school teacher with a degree in accounts, but never expected my father to pay it for me!!!!

Interesting seems like a fair a rule as many, but now lets really take a look at this. The must meas that all the farrangs that have gotten married, here thier parents should have paid

Wonder how many farrangs weddings there would have been here:?

I thought I had started a very new custom when a girls mother told me I had to paid a dowery to date her divorced daughter. By the way this is what the daughter told me was said. She to was one of Three Day Rays adventures that didn't make it three days

I'm really curious as to how the other years of this marrriage were. Something tells me I would have moved out much earlier if this is any indication as to how the early years were. Some things are Thai traditions some things are just money grabbing schemes I think I know which this is

Yes I agree with your TW but if the wife doesn't work and the only source of income is the mans pension, who is paying?His wifes argument was , she wants her son to have a good education and doesn't want him to leave college until he is finished, the farang is bad for suggesting it, not the son stupid for wanting to marry before having income.
Frightenly my own wife who is a highly educated graduate concurs with this pont of view, so it looks like I have got some stormy water ahead.

valentine wrote:Yes I agree with your TW but if the wife doesn't work and the only source of income is the mans pension, who is paying?His wifes argument was , she wants her son to have a good education and doesn't want him to leave college until he is finished, the farang is bad for suggesting it, not the son stupid for wanting to marry before having income.
Frightenly my own wife who is a highly educated graduate concurs with this pont of view, so it looks like I have got some stormy water ahead.

Man that is usery, and typical of spoiling the young men. Heck who wouldn't want the joys of the wedding bed and not have to provide for the family. Oh while college education is being paid for as well. Give me a break. If the young stud wants a qaulity education he should be very grateful that he is getting as should the wife.

I believed that part of providing the dowery to the family was to prove that the young man was a serious enough individual, to get married in the first place. What do you mean the girl is moving into the guys house, not how it is done. Either that are all the college professors in my class were lying to me.

Actually I thought this was a bit humorous at first, but I find nothing amusing about it anymore.

Not speaking of this specific incident but there is far to much of this approach in our community. I spent lunch with a friend today, a friend who just paid all the land bill for his Thai wifes family and dispursed the land among the relatives as they expected his wife got a portion of the land in the deal. He is building a house on the land for the wife that he has no intention of ever living in. Now she has to have a new motorcycle and cute little doggy. Oh yes her sister is buying some more land so now he is supposed to buy her more land so she can save face.

Now what does he get for this the privailage of living alone a lot of the time. Now even if she is home he gets the privilage of preparing his own meals cleaning the house and doing the laundry. What does she do sleeping nursing her hangover from the village must be a huge village she has been to 20 funerals in the last few months resulting in her over drinking. He aslo gets to be the ridicule of the village at her direction.

First I have no idea what individual would tolerate being treated like that by anybody much less his wife is beyond me. Secondly where does the mentality come from that all that one does is take in a mariage and never gives.

All the Thia tradtions set aide how can a marriage be based on such a thought process isn't a marriage a life partnership sharing the good and the difficult times. Trying to achieve mutual goals the betterment of the family.

The amazing thing is we actually discuss if this kind of behavior is reasonable. Heck no it's not, but yet guys tolerate marriages like this it's beyond me. What happened to thier self esteem, how could they be sharp enough to get the money to live here and not work, but yet let themselves be belittled by the very person they give the most to.

I apologize right up front, this was not meant in totality toward the original post. I have no idea what the previous years of the marriage were like maybe wonderful maybe they did work toward common goals.

I just don't understand the thought process on either side of the coin. Can someone enlighten me? I just don't get it

If I understand this man has been a good and giving husband and his wife after all these years is willing to watch him walk to appease her spoiled son. Man where does reality, love and respect for the man who gave so much kick in

I spent lunch with a friend today, a friend who just paid all the land bill for his Thai wifes family and dispursed the land among the relatives as they expected his wife got a portion of the land in the deal. He is building a house on the land for the wife that he has no intention of ever living in. Now she has to have a new motorcycle and cute little doggy. Oh yes her sister is buying some more land so now he is supposed to buy her more land so she can save face.

Now what does he get for this the privailage of living alone a lot of the time. Now even if she is home he gets the privilage of preparing his own meals cleaning the house and doing the laundry. What does she do sleeping nursing her hangover from the village must be a huge village she has been to 20 funerals in the last few months resulting in her over drinking. He aslo gets to be the ridicule of the village at her direction."

I know we're getting of thread again, but if I have understood the above quote correctly, I think I would have been long gone, or at least some time back I would have conveniently run out of money and then see if my wife still loved me! Surely one has to draw the line somewhere. That sounds like the guy is being taken for a big ride.

Ok I have read all the post and IMHO there is only one answer!

Who wears the pants in this family? I would take Junior out in the back yard and tell him Hell NO. You want to get married then go get a job and work this out for yourself. I will help you but not do it for you.

This reminds me of one of my sons, after getting his college he wanted to take a bit of time off, that I owed this to him. I told him the only thing I owed him was my foot up his where the sun don't shine.

I also bet this split was a long time in coming and this is just the final straw that broke the camels back.

I would have to face this issue personally before giving an opinion.

I suppose one easy way out would be too keep trying for a daughter who's own sin sot would help ease the burden of the males in the family...

Well, so far, the vote is 100% no way.I hope that these guys, don't have any male children, because if you have, like me, your going to be facing stormy seas in the not too distant future.
Yesterday when my wife and I picked our boy up from school, a school that has a high percentage of Mia Farangs, I was so sure that my view was the right one, I wanted to prove it to my wife, so asked the opinions of other ladies who had sons to collect. I was totally shot down in flames. We asked 5 mothers, all said they would expect the farang to contribute to his dowry, even 2 who said , they didn't get one themselves.
I also asked, does your husband know this? the answer seemed to be almost a conspiracy. None had discussed it with him,"Its Thai custom" They assumed he would know, and indeed , do.
So, if your one of the voters, and your wife has a son, its time to get talking man!!

I ask wife and the answer is even if Thai husband you are suppose to help. Oh well east meets west and my answer would still remain. As stated some things go the Thai way and some falang.

arjay wrote:The sin-sot should be based on the bride's value, and take into account, to what level she is educated, what sort of job she has and what expectations they have regarding her future.

I don't have a step son BUT - I wonder how negotiations are going to go when my step daughter comes of age? She attends private school and will be well educated - whether she likes it or not!!
How does a farang negotiate Sin Sot from a Thai? Maybe the boys family will try to turn things around and expect the farang to pay them

Just a thought but the Lao word is ka dong (not sure of spelling)

valentine wrote:Well, so far, the vote is 100% no way.I hope that these guys, don't have any male children, because if you have, like me, your going to be facing stormy seas in the not too distant future.
Yesterday when my wife and I picked our boy up from school, a school that has a high percentage of Mia Farangs, I was so sure that my view was the right one, I wanted to prove it to my wife, so asked the opinions of other ladies who had sons to collect. I was totally shot down in flames. We asked 5 mothers, all said they would expect the farang to contribute to his dowry, even 2 who said , they didn't get one themselves.
I also asked, does your husband know this? the answer seemed to be almost a conspiracy. None had discussed it with him,"Its Thai custom" They assumed he would know, and indeed , do.
So, if your one of the voters, and your wife has a son, its time to get talking man!!

Val to be honest I think your asking in the wrong place. I know what was told to me in English claases at Ratchabat this was a subject we discussed. These were College Professors, they all spoke english the only thing I did was act as a modorator and get them tho express thier thoughts in english. We spent three days on this subject with me playing devils advocate.

Not one person in that room believed the dowry was a bad thing, it definetly the Thai way, men included. But not once did I hear anyone say the parents had to pay it. The idea was probably a very good one at one time, I believe rather distorted these days.

Dowery's were not always money, Pigs, chickens ect was the coin of the realm when this started. Why because the groom moved into the wifes family, there was one more mouth to feed. Probably made a lot of since in those days, very distorted from it's roots today.

This is not east meets west, the above is east meets west, this is usery.

Each of us have to decide how far we go, and I would not disrespect anyone that decides for peace that they do this. However, that being said you are starting a farrang Thai tradition. If a person does it then the assumption is that every farrang should do it.

I can think of three approaches:

Pack your things take the ATM with you and don't give in.

Create flash cash present it and get the money back

Follow Thai tradition and insist that the son move in with the wifes family an pay his own way in that family.

Of course there is always the old fashion way say NO

Sorry for getting off track but this one hit me on a day where I just spent hours listneing to a guy who was definetly being used.