Immigration – A law (whim) unto themselves.

Try this one.

An ex GF of mine comes from Laos. We still keep in touch from time to time. When we previously lived in Udon, she had her passport, among other things stolen from the house. The police provided a report, which when crossing back to Laos she presented and was allowed through without fuss or further ado.

Recently on a visit to the south of Thailand she had her handbag stolen, in which she had her passport, Lao ID card, ATM card, bank book, mobile telephone, cash and other things. (You may well ask about the wisdom of having all these things together in her handbag, as indeed did I and others). However, she again reported this to the police and obtained a “report”. As they asked if she had a copy of her passport or knew the number, I was able to provide her with photocopy that I still had in my possession.

The following day she borrowed money and traveled back up to Nong Khai and presented herself at the “Friendship” bridge in Nong Khai at around 8.00pm yesterday the 15th November. As before she was sent to the Immigration office, to the side of the booths, where this time she was told she could not cross back into Laos, but instead must go to Khon Kaen to the Lao Consulate to resolve matters (she didn’t understand what she should do there, but maybe they expected her to obtain either a replacement passport or issue further documentation).

She argued with them at length that she had been told by the police that all she needed to do was present their report at the bridge, (as she had done once in the past), it was now night time, she had little or no money, her daughter was sick in Laos and she needed to get home quickly. The officer she spoke to (one of four present) was unrepentant and unyielding, would not contact a superior when she protested and asked him to do so, would not give his name or number, would not telephone anyone else to check anything, would not speak to me on the telephone, did not accept the offer of a 500 baht bribe.

The girl involved was distraught, not knowing what to do and sought my advice by telephone several times during the “encounter”. (She is not a provocative or contentious person. She is quiet and polite, so certainly had not provoked their lack of cooperation or insensitivity.) It was difficult to be able to advise, - but after initially advising her to persist, which was to no avail, - I tentatively suggested a number of things including:-

Sit down on there floor and continue to insist on seeing a superior.

Sleep on their sofa or floor and see what happened, or what the morning brought.

Go back to Nong Khai and stay the night before re-presenting herself at the bridge the next morning, after there had been a change of shift.

Try and find a boat somewhere that would take her across the river illegally.

Stay in Nong Khai overnight and then bus to Khon Kaen tomorrow before going to the Lao consulate there, as requested.

Go outside, wait a few minutes and then board the next mini-bus just before it left and hope they didn’t look or see, or don’t bother. This was on the assumption that if they were going beyond the bounds of their normal practice, (which I felt to be the case as he would not give his name or speak to a superior), they would be reluctant to arrest her, as they would then (maybe) have to complete paperwork justifying their actions and signing their names.

However, I then had to leave the ball in her court as to what to do. She was the one there.

Later she rang me to say that she had taken the last option above – got onto the mini-bus (no one had stopped her) and had crossed to the Lao side of the bridge – where the Llao staff had joked with her about the loss of her passport telling her that she owed them a beer. She was too scared to risk telling them what had occurred on the Thai side.

Consider that this girl had her passport and money stolen whilst in Thailand, most probably by Thai people. She correctly reports it to the Thai police and as advised by them travels directly to Nong Khai and presents that report to the Immigration officials at the bridge, along with a photocopy of her passport personal details page. She had arrived on a 30 day stamp, (and was returning well within that time frame) and had remonstrated with them that they should be able to check she had not overstayed from their computer. (I believe their may have been some doubt as to their ability to do that, but that is their problem/shortcoming. They had not checked previously)

OK, I don’t know the official ruling on such situations, but I do know that she was allowed to cross previously with no problem whatsoever under virtually identical circumstances, and I have heard of others having done the same. If there had been a change of ruling, then I see no reason why the official concerned would not give his name (and number if he had one), or refer her to a superior when requested. That all just smells of them making it up as they go along and them acting upon a whim.

Maybe this is a case of how the second world treats the third world! Or how third rate officials try and demonstrate power or authority.

Arjay, I assume the people who stopped her were Thai and just trying to flex a little muscle. I must admit it must have been a stressful situation for your freind. I have seen my wife cower in front of authority and imagine this was the response they were looking for, but in this situation did not get. "lost face". I hope she keeps her passport in a safe place in the future.

RJ I think your title to this tale says it all...
I understand that all countries must have rules & regulations about how non citizens can enter the country (leave seems a little strange though as most countries are glad to see the back of foreigners ). The UK has some of the strictest laws going after all.
What pi55es me off is the ability of individual officers in Nong Khai to make up a new rule (or a new interpretation of an old rule) at the drop of a hat with zero chance any recourse by the individual that the rule is being inforced on.
In any civilised country there is a proper set down appeals procedure. This is not to enable the individual to circumvent the law but to ensure that the laws of the land are applied in a correct & equitable manner to everyone trying to enter (or leave) the country.
I fear that Thailand will be plagued by governmental corruption (and all the negative aspects this brings to the Thai public) until rules are introduced that ensure that these petty public servants can be made to account for their actions...

There are some real asreh0lls at the Nong Khai Immigration BUT maybe, just maybe, they were saying one thing but meaning another ie. the actions she took and got away with.

I

Bob Helm wrote:RJ I think your title to this tale says it all...
I understand that all countries must have rules & regulations about how non citizens can enter the country (leave seems a little strange though as most countries are glad to see the back of foreigners Very Happy ). The UK has some of the strictest laws going after all.
What pi55es me off is the ability of individual officers in Nong Khai to make up a new rule (or a new interpretation of an old rule) at the drop of a hat with zero chance any recourse by the individual that the rule is being inforced on.
In any civilised country there is a proper set down appeals procedure. This is not to enable the individual to circumvent the law but to ensure that the laws of the land are applied in a correct & equitable manner to everyone trying to enter (or leave) the country.
I fear that Thailand will be plagued by governmental corruption (and all the negative aspects this brings to the Thai public) until rules are introduced that ensure that these petty public servants can be made to account for their actions... Sad

Spot on, Bob.

I must admit, as a normally very calm and non violent person, I was seething at their behaviour and treatment of this girl. (Remember also that Thai is a second language to her). You realise, particularly as a non-Thai, just how impotent you are in such situations.

If I still lived in Udon or Nong Khai I would go and complain to the head of Immigration in Nong Khai. I can understand why the official involved would be reluctant to give his name.

As suggested, it maybe that they wanted to "teach her a lesson" and ultimately were prepared to turn a 'blind eye' to her crossing anyway, but that isn't the way to do it. A gentle scolding, with a warning would be appropriate.

Agreed in the Uk, and many western countries, Immigration policies and practices are very strict, but you do nevertheless retain the to a proper explanation, the right of appeal, and individual's in authority have to be able to justify their actions and put their name to their decisions.

In most civilised countries civil servants/government employees/officials, and indeed most companies' employees, are "Accountable" for their actions, and they know it. Such behaviour directly reflects upon the image of the country as a whole! And until this country and the 'powers that be' can accept and adopt that practice (consistency and Accountability) they will always be perceived as a third rate country, impeded by corruption and abuses of power, and thus with a tarnished image!

Aah very good point Bandung_Dero & one that I completely overlooked...
You could be completely right, silly of me to assume that any organisation are 100% prats 100% of the time.....

U.S. Immigration officials are no different. To make a very long story short, after a number of rejections and gross mis-treatment of my Thai wife, I sent an email to my United States Representative apprising him of her treatment. He immediately answered me, asked for details, which I willing supplied and within a week or so, emailed me a copy of the Congressional Letter he sent to the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok. Within a week or so of receiving this letter, we went back to Bangkok, presented it and was turned down again, but on our way to the airport, they phoned us and told us to return and pick up the wife's VISA. The rejection forms we had received weren't signed and were just checked in one of the blocks that the immigration officer thought was proper. Maybe the Thai officials got their tact and diplomacy training in the U.S.

I repeat what I posted on Lee's thread concerning the problems he (and others) encountered with Immigration in Nong Khai:-

Maybe it's about time some of us took a stand against these rude, bully boy tactics used by Immigration, and report their behaviour to Bangkok. I don't believe there would be any subsequent discrimination against complainers, if there was a regular stream of complaints. Bangkok would surely realise that all is not well in their north-eastern outpost and do something about it.

arjay,
i would start it off, but i have done things like this in the past and been left holding the bag because everyone else didn't have the b***s to follow suit. Why don't you write to BKK and publish their reply for the rest of us? When I see it, i will also send in my complaint.

I have heard that there have been complaints about this guy before, and that he was under direct supervision for a while ie a superior sitting behind him at his desk while he served the public.

Of course, he was all sweetness and light, but as soon at the supervisor left, the prick reverted back to his normal ways.

I also understand there is a sign in the Immigration office inviting people to go upstairs and talk to a senior officer if they are dissatisfied with the treatment they have received - perhaps Bandung Dero could throw some more light on this.

DieselDaddy wrote:arjay,
i would start it off, but i have done things like this in the past and been left holding the bag because everyone else didn't have the b***s to follow suit. Why don't you write to BKK and publish their reply for the rest of us? When I see it, i will also send in my complaint.

What I gather from ThaiVisa.com is the Immigration Department monitors forums such as theirs. Maybe it would only require an email to Bangkok with links to the two current threads running here. Just a thought.

If someone would tell me how to send these threads to Thai Immigration in BKK,
I'd gladly do so, but only after next Weds. 11-21-2007 when I go to Nong Khai to re-new my one year non imm "O' VISA. I'm afraid I'll be stuck with the Gestapo Officer and be banished from the country if he knew it was me who sent the info on him to BKK.

How about another approach... rather than any individual putting his neck on the line, what if some articulate individual wrote a 'letter of complaint', published such letter an a manner that the rest of us who agree could 'sign' it. After gathering at least 10 to 20 signatures - showing that these are not the feelings of just one individual, then the letter could be forwarded on to Immigration in BKK. I'd be willing to sign providing the letter only stated the facts and was not too abusive to the individual in question.

I wonder if our friend sitting in the land of smiles office Nong Khai ever thinks about the many expats living in Thailand that contribute a great deal of time , effort and of course money into the local communities because they love this country and most of it's people ,and not to just help pay his wages