I have a 150 watt water pump, (Model Mitsubishi WP155-N) which I am trying to utilise in conjunction with a newly dug well.

The well is 7 metres deep, the bottom of the pipe drawing from the well is about 6.3 metres down. The pump I am trying to utilise is however, approx 6 metres from the well head (almost horizontally). For your guidance, between the top of the vertical pipe and the pump itself there are 5 x 90 degree turns. Three as it exits the well, and two more later near the pump. The increase in height between the well head and the pump is negligible, no more than 1 foot over the 6 metre distance.

We have used 1 inch diameter pipe from the bottom of the well to the pump. From the discharge side of the pump to the house it is 1/2 inch pipe. The onward distance from the pump to the farthest point within the house is no more than 9 metres, and the height gain less than 2 metres, probably only 1.5m.

Although the well is almost 7 metres deep, it contains water up to a depth of about 3.5 - 4 metres, (so as I understand it the pump is only really lifting the equivalent of about 3.5 metres. There is then the 6 metre almost flat run to the pump.

The well pump literature is written in Thai, but by comparing it with another (neighbours) pump of the same spec and wattage, and reading the numbers on the specification sticker, it would appear to be capable of "lifting" water from a well up to 9 metres deep, and then "pushing/raising" it UP a further 12 metres; and providing a rate of flow of around 23 or 25 litres a minute.

The sytem works, but the pressure, particularly at the farthest and highest parts of the house is quite weak, though much stronger in the nearest and lowest part of the house. (It's a single storey house, but split level, if that's not a contradiction!).

Whilst I realise it is not usual to have the well pump 6 metres away from the well head, I wouldn't have expected that to have created a problem, because there is very little height gain.

We have checked/confirmed there is no air in the system, and have since cleaned some of the taps/outlets as some (sawn) plastic pipe particles had come through the system and come to rest in the tap filters!!

The pressure is weak even if we use only one outlet/tap at a time and weakest (understandably) at the farthest/highest point from the pump.

Are there any experts out there, that can clarify where we are going wrong, or where the weak link is or are?

My neighbour has a well, with the same size pump (different manufacturer). His well pump is positioned at the well head, draws from about 4 meters down and can deliver water up to his roof height (approx a further 4 metres up), and even then across twin car port roofs and down the other side, (where it has been linked into my system as a test) and to the farthest points in my house, where it produced a slightly better pressure!

No expert but some helpful hints.

1. Well pump will not produce pressure It is resistance due to air, pipe, length etc. Most likely your pump is set at a low operating pressure. When it is off to properly have pressured water completly throughout your home will be 60PSI with 50 PSI as the minimum. You should set your pump to commence pumping at minimum 25 PSI. I have looked around Udon a bit and have not found a pump and surge tank that will deliver this pressure.

2. IF you really want good pressure and steady pressure, IMHO you will either have to install a pressure tank and seperate pump or instal an inline pump past your current setup. This way your current pump will supply your inline pump which will keep your pressure more level within your home. Here is a link to one that is battery powered and only 3 GPM. However they make them to run off the power outlet and go up to 5 GPM, which is quite high unless you are filling a whirlpool suana type tub. Even then it will work quite well.

The inline pump is really cheap way to go. If you own your place and will have it awhile, I would install a 50 gallon pressureized tank with a pump on the well that would allow the pump to kick on at 30PSI and off at 75PSI. I can only think what the Thais will think of a falang that would want pressure like you get at better hotels in your house. I went to global to get a 30 gallon water heater and the girl even called the manager and he told me I did not need that as those little carp things on the wall would do and the heater I chose was for severl house or apartments. I know crazy falang but when I want to take a shower I like a good hot shower and water pressure.

Hope this helps. If not PM and I maybe can help you get it set up.

Here is the link to a type of inline pump.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/ ... 70_527_527

BP, I am not sure that I understand all your points. I do know that the pump was recently adjusted so that it did not cut in so readily, i.e. at a slight drop in pressure. So I assume I could adjust that aspect so that it cuts in sooner, i.e when the pressure drops a little, rather than a lot.

Secondly, I think you are suggesting that I should have a pump (either new or relocate the existing) actually at the well head, and not 6 metres away. In which case would relocating the existing pump solve the problem, or is it significantly preferable to use a well head pump AND the existing pump? In which case presumably the well head pump would then have a much easier job just supplying water to the existing pump. Is that really necessary?

I do have a normal storage/back up tank, which currently is separately fed from an alternative source/supply and that is next to the existing pump, but kept isolated by closed valves since the introduction of the supply from the well. The new well supplies water straight to that pump, with T junction, and each supply has a separate control valve. The tank supply valve now being closed.

I am not familiar with pressure tanks, though see them referred to on the Internet. As this is Thailand and more basic set ups are common place here, I would prefer to avoid significant additional expense or complications, so would prefer to avoid a pressure tank.

I am trying to determine the key flaw or weakness in the current system. Are you saying that, in your view, the problem is because the pump is not at the well head, or that it is having to pull or push the water too far, or that the pump pressure sensitivity is not set high enough (ie. that it does not cut in soon enough?

Thanks for the input so far.

Your last paragraph is what I am saying. I doubt you can set the lower and higher limits of your current pump to really affect your water pressure. The systems that I saw for home use in Thailand are for you just to have water, not pressured water.

A cheap fix is leave your setup alone and just add an inline pump down stream of your current system. These little pumps work off pressure with no surge tank. They are economical to run and no maintenance. Like I said you can get them to run on electicity and not 12VDC. Bet it will not add 5US to your bill per month. The pleasure of a nice shower daily would outweigh the little cost by far.

If you do not want to do the two pump system you will really have two choices(if you want pressure and not just have water).

You can use a submersible pump in your well that pumps into a pressureized tank (tank will be about 150 US I am guessing) working the on and off via pressure switch. These are easy to instal except for the pressure switch, however once installed, again very little or no maintenance.

The second is use a centrifigal pump similar to the setup you now have but use a pressure tank. Basically same as above.

Not trying to sound like a smart arse but I bet you could find a US country boy down your way and they should be able to help you set this up easily. The epuipment might be a bit of a challenge. I did find a tank in Udon. The pump I will say you would have to order from BKK. That is why I am going with the inline pump as I can order it and install it with no help. Total to do the job should be under 200 US. Lifetime on the Shurflo pumps is usually 5 to 10 years.

Don't know if this is possible but if you can let the inline pump feed the shower and kitchen and loo sinks. Let the current system feed the rest.

Hope this helps. If not keep going and we will get there. Just not a great orator.

BP, Thanks, this is all very useful input.

I am also suspicious of the number of 90 degree turns that the pipe makes between the well head and the pump, all of which the pump is currently having to "pull" through. There obviously has to be one at the top of the long 6.3m vertical section in the well. But we have then run the pipe along a covered gulley, which entails 2 x 90 degree turns to enter the gulley and another 2 when it resurfaces, plus three more when it joins the existing pipeworkand enters the pump. I am not sure how much of an "impact" that will have on the pumps power and water pressure.

Currently I am thinking of moving the existing pump to the well head, but continue to use just that one pump, so it will then be pushing through those 90 degree turns, rather than pulling through them. Do you think that would have a significant impact?

IF, I were to use two pumps, one at the well head and one, as existing (in-line, as you called it), then am I right in thinking that the water/pressure delivered to the house, would be no greater than the pressure of the weaker of the 2 pumps? If for example, the well head pump was 150 watts, and then the subsequent, in-line pump was 250 watts, presumably the system couldn't deliver greater than the 150 watt pump? And similarly if the pumps were the other way round - still 150 max?

One other thought, what if I shortened the pipe legth down the well by say 0.5 metre or even 1 metre? The pump would then be pulling from less depth. Would that make a significant difference?

Any feel you can give me for which of these changes would have the greatest benefit would be very helpful.

Incidentally, I have further cleaned some of the tap and shower filters within the house, which has improved the situation.

Thanks again.

arjay wrote:BP, Thanks, this is all very useful input.

I am also suspicious of the number of 90 degree turns that the pipe makes between the well head and the pump, all of which the pump is currently having to "pull" through. There obviously has to be one at the top of the long 6.3m vertical section in the well. But we have then run the pipe along a covered gulley, which entails 2 x 90 degree turns to enter the gulley and another 2 when it resurfaces, plus three more when it joins the existing pipeworkand enters the pump. I am not sure how much of an "impact" that will have on the pumps power and water pressure.

Currently I am thinking of moving the existing pump to the well head, but continue to use just that one pump, so it will then be pushing through those 90 degree turns, rather than pulling through them. Do you think that would have a significant impact?

IF, I were to use two pumps, one at the well head and one, as existing (in-line, as you called it), then am I right in thinking that the water/pressure delivered to the house, would be no greater than the pressure of the weaker of the 2 pumps? If for example, the well head pump was 150 watts, and then the subsequent, in-line pump was 250 watts, presumably the system couldn't deliver greater than the 150 watt pump? And similarly if the pumps were the other way round - still 150 max?

One other thought, what if I shortened the pipe legth down the well by say 0.5 metre or even 1 metre? The pump would then be pulling from less depth. Would that make a significant difference?

Any feel you can give me for which of these changes would have the greatest benefit would be very helpful.

Incidentally, I have further cleaned some of the tap and shower filters within the house, which has improved the situation.

Thanks again.

Paragraph 1 Any 90 or T in a line will effect the output but will have less impact on the suction side of the pump. I really do not think this is the problem. To move the pump to the well would not help as then the line impediments would be on the down stream side of the pump. Right now your pump pumps into a pressure can then to the line. The problem with these cans is they do not allow much air to be on top of the water. The air is what you compress to make pressure. You cannot compress water. This is why I say use a 40 to 50 gallon pressure tank. What you have is a miniture system and that is why you cannot make it work except for low pressure differences.

Paragraph 2 Yes it will have more impact. That is where you have your pressure. Sure supply on the suction side impacts the discharge but any line drag (90's, T's, pipe in distance, etc) will effect the pressure downstream. Even with the system I am proposing if you run the pipe 2 miles you will have very little pressure due to line drag.

Paragraph 3. Your wattage is only for use of electricity. and the answer is No to your question. I did not clarify but between the two pumps you would install a check valve or one way flow valve. It would let the water go to the second pump but not the other way. Most of the Shurflo pumps have an internal check valve to prevent this from happening.

Paragraph 4 I don't personally think you would want to shorten you internal string of pipe. Actually if anything add more. Why? the water in the well will rise in this pipe and if you have a good system with no air it will hold it in the pipe. This will decrease the amount of lift on the pump. If anything put a foot valve (special check valve) on the bottom of the line to hold the water in the system.

Paragraph 5. The best method with the best return is the pressure tank system with a submersible pump. It is there for the long term then. If you are there for the long term then that is your answer. If not sure, go with the inline as it is cheaper and will last as long most likely.

Paragraph 6. Keeping a clean system is important. You are jinxed as the Thais are looking for water and not pressure. It is kinda like I was talking about hot water and the little heaters the Thais use in their houses.

By the way if you do use one of the pressure systems you will have to buy a hot water heater also. The ones used in the Thai houses are for the current water systems. Using any of the above methods will push water thru the little heaters to fast to do much good. Of cource if you like lukewarm showers then it won't matter.

Keep this up and we will have a book soon.

If more help is needed just ask.

From reading the thread it sounds like line drop is the problem. One thought would be to re-plumb using 3/4" to the far/highest end of the system. This may not fix the problem especially if there is a restriction in the pipe run.

Banpaeng wrote:Paragraph 4 I don't personally think you would want to shorten you internal string of pipe. Actually if anything add more. Why? the water in the well will rise in this pipe and if you have a good system with no air it will hold it in the pipe. This will decrease the amount of lift on the pump. If anything put a foot valve (special check valve) on the bottom of the line to hold the water in the system.

I note your comments about not shortening the internal well pipe. Incidentally, there is a filter on the botton end of the internal pipe, which I am told incorporates a non return valve.

And I take your point that it is preferable to have the many 90 degree turns on the suction side of the pump, as opposed to the "push" side of it.

I also noted that the water pressure/flow isn't restricted by the weakest pump in the chain and the role of a "one way flow valve if two pumps were used "in-line".

jetdoc wrote:One thought would be to re-plumb using 3/4" to the far/highest end of the system. This may not fix the problem especially if there is a restriction in the pipe run.

I have looked at the many other pumps used in this area, and all have the pump on top of the well, though of course they weren't converting from an existing system with a pump already installed elsewhere. They also all appear to be using a 1 inch pipe both into and out of the pump.

Our system previously used a 3/4 inch "mains" supply (private water supply from a local lake) to the property and then it reduced to a 1/2 inch pipe throughout.

With our new system, using the well I have a 1 inch from the well to the pump, and then 1/2 inch from the pump to everywhere around the house.

Would there be any advantage in drawing from the well with 3/4 inch piping??

I am slowly coming to the conclusion - make sure all the tap and shower filters etc are clean, [as there had been an initial intake and delivery of plastic particles and dirt when the system was first transferred to the well supply], then run with the current pump for a week or so to fully evaluate it, and then, if it is still too weak, to add a more powerful in-line pump, (say 250 watt) at the well head.

The well is in the front garden and therefore very visible, another reason why I was trying to avoid sticking a pump on top of it.

Thank you both for the great input.

Two suggestions.

1. Forget wattage and look at Gallons per minute (GPM) or Liters per minute (LTM). This will tell you more than the watts. For this type of pump it will not add a lot to the bill.

2. Always use a larger diameter pipe on the suction/supply side of the pump and smaller on the discharge. With these small pumps they can be the same size but never larger on the discharge side.

Also using a larger say 1/2 to 3/4 diameter pipe on the discharge will be more volumn and less pressure. Same goes for distance, more distance equals less pressure.

The above is why I have said is it a pressure problem not a supply problem. Pressure is what I have addressed, not supply. Pressure is the most prevelant problem in Thailand as pressured water is a relative new comer to the home in Thailand (unlike in the west) and supply is all they are looking for rather than pressure. That is the next step for the water systems in Thailand.

banpaeng wrote: Forget wattage and look at Gallons per minute (GPM) or Liters per minute (LTM). This will tell you more than the watts. For this type of pump it will not add a lot to the bill.

Point taken. I refer to wattage, as for me it's a simple, quick and easy way to distinguish between one pump and another when initially comparing or reviewing them. The larger the wattage usually goes hand in hand with the pump's ability to lift water from a greater depth and to deliver a higher number of litres per minute.

I believe the pump already installed moves something like 23 litres per min, in a given set of circumstances. My neighbours states 26 l/min. So maybe something that moves 30+ litres per minute (in the same circumstances) would be preferable.

It's a shame that one can't remove some part of the pump and replace it with a more powerful one, as opposed to having to replace the whole pump.

My thinking was correct then in relation to your comments that we have used 1 inch pipe from well to pump, and then 1/2 inch pipe from pump onwards.

There is incidentally a 1200 litre storage tank already in situ adjacent to the pump, which was previously used for back up, so I don't really want to get into large separate pressure tanks.

For simplicity's sake, I see the most likely options as being either add a new/additional in-line pump at the well head, or replace the existing pump with a more powerful one.

Oh, an afterthought.... the house is built into a slope...... would there be any merit, IF we were to install a second pump, in positioning one at the well head and the other at a high point (at the rear of the house), so that one pump would be delivering water to that point and then the second pump would be zapping (sending) it downhill to all points in the house? Or am I just looking for a different way to complicate things?

very interesting thought. In realitity it is right but for the volumn you are moving a lot of work for very little gain.

I am not sure but you do not put the online pump on the well head. You will put it inline after the present pump you already have installed. The only purpose of this pump will be to increase volumn and pressure. The other pump will feed the inline pump and it will pull away from it but with the little surge tanks the pumps in Thailand have, unless you really leave the water on for an hour or so it should not be an issue.

As stated it is difficult to get this over to a Thai if they are working on your system as it is a foreign concept to them. They are looking only for water and pressure is not an issue. If you lived in Udon which I know you did, water comes on and off frequently. This is because they do not have booster pumps on the system (inline pumps) and very few water towers to sustain the pressure. Again that is what the tank is for you have now. It is so you will have supply. Gosh get out in your yard with a bowl and throw water on yourself. You live in Thailand, Act the part. It should cool you off also!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am by nature very analytical and like to have something to think about and chew on. Down here I have had many little projects on the go, around the house and home. They keep me stimulated and motivated, and stop me from getting bored.

I have just had another little inspiration, related to the water supply, which if I may, I would like to bounce off you. It will take a little explaining, if you could bare with me. I like to bounce things off other people as it helps check and clarify my thinking!!

Originally, the main's water supply entered the property at the front, through the front garden (past where the well is now) and turned left under the front bedroom of the house, and from there to all points. The main's water supply here is through a private company and comes from a lake, which at times gets dirty and runs low.

So, later we added a back up tank and pump (and after that a filter) at the side of the house, near the back (where there was enough space). The water was then piped back to here, where it passed through a filter and either topped up the tank or returned to the front corner of the house where it entered the previous pipework/system.

It was because of the frequent interruptions in that "mains" supply, and the fact the water was often extremely dirty and we were having to pay for the privilege, - oh and it gets turned off most nights towards the end of the dry/high season, - that we decided to install the well. Before doing so I also tested the neighbours well water and found it was crystal clear and no shortage of supply.

So that brings us to virtually where we are today, in that the water from the well IN THE FRONT GARDEN is piped 6.5 metres back to the existing pump, adjacent to the back up tank (NB. the latter still having a separate supply from the neighbour's well) and is then pumped approx 4.5 metres back again, to where it enters the existing pipework under the front bedroom.

Sudden inspiration, - why not move the pump (or install new one) on or close to the well head, (which is very close to the corner of the front bedroom) and then T the pump output straight into the pipe entering the house under the front bedroom, a distance of no more than 2 metres from the well head. The water then no longer has to travel 6.5 metres to the back of the house to the pump and then return 4.5 metres back again to enter the original pipework.

Ok, the downside - there would be no pump to draw from the back up tank, unless we bought a new pump, but we would still have the neighbours well as a back up, (Ok I understand that's really the same supply, i.e from the same water table)). Our well is much deeper and thus has it's own reservoir. Our well is 7 metres deep, and currently has water from about 3 metres down. If we lost well water, then as a last resort we would still have the "mains" lagoon supply, though if the wells went dry that probably would too!!

What does that sound like?

Oh, I have to go and rest my brain now.

For anyone who may be interested, - that's possibly just Banpaeng, - we replaced our 150watt - 23 litres/min, Mitsubishi pump, with a Hitachi 250 watt - 36-44 litres/min pump, which is now successfully delivering the goods (water) at a very suitable pressure. So "power showers" are again on the agenda.

We just swopped it over in the same location as the old one, the position was not the issue, just the pump's performance.

say guys if you want to sort it out put an in line non return valve in the direction of flow take out the reduction or constrictions ie 90 degrees where unnecessary,same same diametre hose all the way through and if possible a spear pump in well,what you are doing at present is restricting the flow by your reducers